Professor
Itse Sagay (SAN), Presidential Advisory Committee Against Corruption (PACAC)
chairman, is as tough as they come. An activist to the core, he is frank and
down-to-earth and for this, he has incurred the Senate’s wrath. But he is not
perturbed. He tells Joseph Jibueze, in this interview, that he is always ready
for the Senate. Sagay also speaks on corruption in the judiciary,
restructuring, former Petroleum Resource Minister Mrs Diezani Alison-Madueke
and sundry issues.
THE
Senators accused you of making hate speeches and using abusive language against
them. Have you apologised to them?
On
the contrary, they should apologise to me, because if you saw their statement,
if I had not become thick-skinned because of my two-year chairmanship of this
committee, I’d have been very upset. I’m a bit thick-skinned now. I’ve been
insulted left, right and centre. Even those that I’m hoping would benefit from
our work young ones whose patrimony is being wasted away some of them are
rented to insult us. So, there was nothing they (Senators) didn’t say about me
that I was ranting, I was over-excited, I talk anyhow, there’s no name they
didn’t call me. I said two things. One, that they’re not committed to Nigeria,
that they’re there for themselves alone and simply consuming all the national
assets and leaving poor Nigerians to waste away and the country
under-developed. And I provided the figures. I know that worse exists, which
has not been detected. I didn’t say what the minority leader, majority leader,
deputy Senate president and Senate president get as extras. They run into
hundreds of millions. What I said at that lecture is a tip of the iceberg.
We’re going to do further thorough research on this matter, and we’re still
going to come out with figures. What we’re aiming for is for the National
Assembly to admit that they’re frittering away our national assets and funds
and therefore preventing them from being used for the other vital sectors, to
create more employment, to fix our infrastructure. If you recall, the former
Governor of Central Bank said they were consuming virtually one quarter, 25 per
cent of our budget. They didn’t deny it.
Why
are you against their allowances?
There’s
one more thing I need to stress. If you look at the allowances, Nigerians need
to ask themselves questions. Should we be the ones clothing Senators? Should my
tax be used in hanging Agbada on a Senator? The press has not taken it up, but
this is serious. How many times have government provided clothes for you, and
yet you’re clothed? But these men who are overpaid, who are absorbing the
largest share of our resources are still asking us to clothe them, as if they
arrived in Abuja naked. It’s not acceptable. These same people are collecting
huge sums, claiming that they’re suffering hardship by doing their job. If you
go to the Senate chambers, you will see the luxurious furnishing, fully
air-conditioned; you’ll see staff running around, attending to every little
thing they need, serving them, hand and foot that is hardship. What about the man
who is earning N18,000 a month, who’s carrying machinery, working in a factory,
cutting grass on the road, cleaning the roads, sweating with hard labour.
Nobody is paying them hardship allowance. But the people are paid hardship
allowance for living in tremendous luxury. They’re claiming utility allowance.
In other words, if we don’t give them money, they don’t have cutlery,
tablecloth, plates and saucepans. We have to provide those for them. The list
goes on. It is criminal. It is unconscionable. It is wicked for people who are
so highly privileged, who are the wealthiest people in the country to still be
sucking our blood dry by collecting these things which they don’t need and
depriving others of them.
Do
you agree with suggestions that we should do away with the bi-cameral
legislature to save cost?
In
fact I was just coming to that. If we’re going to keep the bi-cameral type of
National Assembly, we must do something. And that is: We must make it part
time, as we had in the First Republic. They would legislate for two months, and
then everybody would go back. To save this country from this tremendous cost
that is bending our back, we need to turn the National Assembly into part time
operation, so that any member who is there is someone comfortably having a
profession somewhere else. In those days, teachers, professors, local
government chairmen, emirs and so forth, they all came. They were only paid
sitting allowance and were housed. They had their professions. They were not
looters who had come to make a fortune in the National Assembly. We must go
back to that, make it part time and pay them only sitting allowances.
The
Senate said you did not get your facts right in claiming they have not passed
any bill to aid the anti-corruption war. Is that so?
There’s
passing and there’s passing. Let’s take the Financial Intelligence Agency Bill
as an example. The bill they passed is just pure vendetta. There are other
financial intelligence unit that are located within other anti-corruption
agencies all over the world. What is important is the level of their
independence within where they’re located. But these people want to take it out
of the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission (EFCC) because they want to
smack the Acting Chairman Ibrahim Magu in the eye. That’s all. So I don’t count
that as an achievement. When you do something based on hatred, it’s not an
achievement.
What
about the Whistleblower Bill which they passed?
We
were already operating the Whistle-blower policy before it went to them. And
I’m not aware that the Bill has been signed into law. But, the policy was
already in operation.
They
also said they passed the Mutual Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters Bill,
contrary to your claim…
I
am even surprised government took that bill to the National Assembly. If we
have stolen property abroad, mutual legal assistance enables that government to
cooperate with us for the return of our assets. It gives us access to
properties located within foreign territories. You don’t need legislation for
that. It’s just something between two heads of state.
So,
which laws were you referring to?
The
Special Criminal Court Bill, which will create a court specifically for cases
on corruption, narcotics, kidnapping, with main emphasis on corruption cases.
They are sitting on that.
Is
that all?
There
is the Proceeds of Crime Bill, which automatically will put anybody whose
assets is seized on the defence, to prove ownership. The burden of proof will
be reversed. He has to establish that he’s the owner. There are little clauses
under various laws but we want to put them under one head where a prosecutor
can zero in and use it. They have not passed that.
Let’s
move to the issue of loss of high profile cases. What is being done to reverse
this trend?
A
lot is being done. There is a manual for prosecution. We noticed the weaknesses
in the existing system. It guides the anti-corruption agencies in prosecuting
cases to be effective, successful and fast. It proposes that it is not an
investigator alone who should be involved in investigation. It must involve a
potential prosecutor, because it is the lawyer who knows the ingredients that
constitute the offence. So, if the policeman is veering off into irrelevant
things, he can stop him and say no. Second, there is a committee made up of top
members of the anti-corruption agency, before whom a progress report is
brought, who would then look at what has been brought, the evidence that has
been found and look at the offence. So there’s a vetting committee. By the time
an investigation report passes through the prosecutor who is working with the
investigator, and then passes through a committee made up of about five or six
people who are professionals in various areas including law, then there is
likelihood that what will come before the court will be something substantive.
Special
Assistant to the President on Prosecution Mr Okoi Obono-Obla recently said some
cases he filed at the Supreme Court were yet to be heard nearly 10 years after.
Have you had a similar experience?
He’s
very right. The cases before the Supreme Court are a cause of major
frustration. I have a private case which has been sitting there. The registrar
told us: ‘For the next five years you won’t hear anything’. So it’s a very
major problem. I don’t blame the Supreme Court too much because under our
present procedural system, anything goes to the Supreme Court, anything
interlocutory matters that will still come back to the High Court, which should
have been disposed of finally. So they’re overloaded. We need to come together,
the Chief Justice of Nigeria (CJN) and others, first to amend the Constitution,
so that we totally eliminate interlocutory matters. Second, there is no need
for commercial cases to go to the Supreme Court. They can be resolved at the
Court of Appeal level where you have three justices. Leave constitutional
cases, criminal cases, things concerning administration of government, human
rights just about five things for the Supreme Court.
Do
you support the idea of regional Supreme Courts?
We
had that before. The Western region and the western state had a Western Court
of Appeal, but when they gave their judgment, they still went to the Supreme
Court. If you’re going to have that, then it has to be made in such a way that
appeals end there. So it’s true (that cases last up to 10 years), but it’s not
the fault of the Supreme Court.
Some
have called for the reform of the National Judicial Council (NJC), saying the
CJN should not be NJC chairman to prevent conflict of interest. What is your
take?
I
think that retired justices should be introduced into the system. I feel that
the head of the NJC should be a retired judge. Why? Because they will not have
an axe to grind. There are dangers of self-interest and lack of objectivity in
some of the activities of the NJC. If you see some of the judges being
prosecuted now, their cases went before the NJC, and they said they didn’t find
them liable, they should go back. So there’s a lot of esprit de corps, lack of
objectivity, protection of wrong self interests. Again, Nigeria is a very
difficult country. Not all retired judges are good. I know of some retired
judges whose job is to carry bribe, because the people who are there now are
their junior colleagues, so they go and influence them with money from Senior
Advocates. In Nigeria, we have not yet established a system of checking the
background and records of people before appointing them. We’re not sufficiently
ruthless in saying: ‘No, you’re unfit. Period.’ It doesn’t matter that you’ve
not been found guilty. The fact that there is suspicion against you is
sufficient. A judge, like Caesar’s wife, must be above suspicion. He absolutely
has to be above suspicion. There must not be a breath of misconduct about him.
If that happens, certainly he’s not fit to hold an important position.
The
Senate has refused to confirm Acting EFCC chairman. For how long can Magu
remain in acting capacity?
Indefinitely.
The Senate, in my view, doesn’t even have jurisdiction in this matter. It is
the President who has jurisdiction because of Section 171 of the Constitution
where he is empowered to appoint him directly as chairman. This government is
being a bit too careful, gentle, not wanting to ruffle feathers. It’s okay.
Maybe that’s why they’re politicians and in government. If people like me who
are not politicians were there, these people (Senators) would have heard a
different message. I’d have rammed things through and damned them to go and do
whatever they like, and let’s see who would come on top, because I believe that
ultimately, righteousness, a good cause, a belief in principle will prevail.
We’re dealing with people who are undergoing all sorts of investigations; they
cannot face a righteous man. So, it’s a kind, gentle government, and I think
they’re lucky that people like me are not there.
Some
people have wondered: What exactly does PACAC do?
We
have done a lot workshops, not only for prosecutors, but for judges in all the
zones. We’ve taken them through the provisions of the Administration of
Criminal Justice Act, how to tackle corruption cases. For Justices of the Court
of Appeal and Supreme Court, we even brought people from abroad, so they would
not say it’s infradig for locals to be taking them through a workshop. We
brought people from England, from Canada, the Chief Judge of Ghana, those who
are experienced in handling corruption cases. It was a very hot, intensive
session. We have prepared several manuals. PACAC is an advisory body, a sort of
think-tank. We do our workshops, our symposia; we do research and make them
available to government with recommendations of what they should do. We’re
still going to continue to do that even though it’s not everything that we
recommended that has been carried out. We’re sometimes disappointed. They have
not really rejected anything out of hand. It’s like: ‘Well, this is not the
time.’ That sort of thing.
Courts
are resuming for the new legal year. What are your expectations?
We
are concerned about the judiciary. Without the judiciary, let us kiss the
anti-corruption war goodbye. We must have a committed judiciary; otherwise they
will keep messing up any case that comes. It’s so easy to give a reason, which
will appear to be reasonable, and the public will say oh, the anti-corruption
agencies have not done their homework. It’s not so. Quite a number of the
judges are deliberately taking decisions which I’d say indicate their hostility
to the anti-corruption war. There are judges who are hostile. There are judges
who in fact interfere when such cases are going on; using their position to
ensure that government loses. Government is aware of all this. They’re aware of
so many things. It’s just as well that some of us are not in a position to take
decisions. People who should be stopped are slipping through and still being
relevant when in fact they should be pushed aside into retirement where they
will not interfere in the anti-corruption struggle. I want particularly the CJN
who is the leader of the judiciary to study his men very carefully. There are
reports on these judges, some by the Department of State Services (DSS) and
from other sources. He knows a lot of what is happening. I feel that judges who
are showing they are not committed to the eradication of corruption should be
eased out of the system.
Why
is PACAC pushing for special courts?
If
we could only get the National Assembly to pass the Criminal Court Bill to
become an Act, the court will be set up in such a way that only selected judges
with established reputation, integrity, honour and honesty established, not
guess work, from record only they would be appointed judges of the court. We
know them. There are some of them, well known, and they will be the only ones
to man the court. Those are the only ones you cannot approach. These are people
with the spirit of Eso, Aniagolu, Oputa. There are still young judges who have
that spirit. We know them. We’ll select them. They’ll be put there. You dare
not carry money to their chambers. You will come out in chains if you do it. We
have people like that. We want that bill to be passed so they can operate on
that basis. Those are some of the changes we want.
There
have been so many recoveries from former Petroleum Minister Mrs Diezani
Alison-Madueke. What is being done towards extraditing her?
So
many recoveries have been made half of our budget. What is recovered is just a
tip of the iceberg. She’ll come back eventually, but already the British are
investigating her for alleged money laundering. She allegedly has many
buildings in Britain. She has bank accounts. She’s being investigated. I don’t
think they’re going to release her, because they’ll have the first go. After
she has been tried, then we can look at what we have against her. If it’s not
the same thing for which she is tried there, we can still try her here on her
return. I don’t see the need for a hurry to rush her down here. The British are
compiling evidence. I know that some evidence from here have been sent there to
support what the British are doing, because basically it is a case of money
laundering transferring money to Britain to launder by building houses, buying
furniture, putting them in bank accounts and so on. If you know the British,
you will know that any attempt to bring her before they’ve done their own will
not be possible.
What
is your view on calls for restructuring?
I
am a strong supporter of restructuring. Nigeria is a very difficult country,
that’s why there are different views on restructuring. Left to me, I’ll say we
should go back to the 1963 Constitution and then modify it to suit the present
circumstances. What we want to create are viable federating units. The only
viable one in Nigeria now is Lagos. All the others are not viable.
Should
states be collapsed?
It’s
not very realistic to say states should be collapsed, because people who have
established interests, whose whole life is oriented towards state activity,
will object. Some people are even saying we should have 18 more states, which
is a very laughable idea. So, I won’t insist that you should collapse states
completely, but I think we can reduce what they’re doing, transfer more to the
regional government, reduce public service, cut down on cost, and let them do
some basic things which will give some emotional satisfaction to those in
favour of states.
Are
you calling for some kind of regional authority?
O
yes. There will be election and a leader will emerge. Think of how it used to
be when we had four regions. I’m not saying it must be four now. It was the
regions that supported the Federal Government. Every region contributed 20 per
cent of its earnings to the Federal Government. It kept 50 per cent for itself.
The remaining 30 per cent went into a distributable pool meant for most
disadvantaged regions. So the North was the most disadvantaged because of the
size and the resources could not cope, so they were getting 41 per cent of that
30 per cent contributed by all regions. Eastern region got almost 30 per cent.
Then West got about 18 per cent because it was well endowed. And then Midwest
got six per cent. That’s why when the Northerners are so frightened of
restructuring, I say No. There’s nothing to be afraid of. There’s still going
to be a pool that will support you against difficulties. But it’ll not be
enough to make you do nothing as you’re doing now, just going cap in hand to
collect money every month from Abuja, spend it, go back the next month. That
will end. There’ll be support, but you also have to be productive. And there’ll
be competition, because there will be larger entities. There was a lot of
competition in those days. The Western region introduced free education,
everyone introduced it. It introduced television, everyone introduced it. It
built a stadium, everybody built stadia. Then they all competed and had
universities. And we were growing fast, faster than Singapore and all these
other places at that time. So, we could have regions and still leave some
limited power to the states to take of those who have some interests in those
states. Otherwise, I’m being realistic, the debate will be very hard if we say
‘abolish all states’.
What
do you make of the declaration of the Indigenous People of Biafra (IPOB) as a
terrorist organisation?
Whilst
I’m not sure of the legal parameters of that declaration, in practice, yes. If
you look at it, we’re very lucky that this thing did not get out of hand. They
(IPOB) were coming in their thousands, establishing road blocks, and all that.
If that is allowed, then the country is finished. Then they burned down a
police station, killed a policeman. For Christ’s sake, even if you want Biafra,
you don’t have to be violent. If you look at the words that Kanu uses on the social
media, how he has described our President and the rest of us as living in a zoo
abusive, violent, intemperate words all those in my view constitute in totality
acts of terrorism in which they can push undiscerning youths into rage and
violence which can be destructive. I just thank God that the North is showing
some maturity and some sense of restraint while this thing is being curbed. But
we really need to curb IPOB otherwise they will turn this country into a
tinderbox.
The
Senate has asked the President to call you to order. The All Progressives
Congress (APC) also cautioned you against comments capable of creating tension
between the executive and the legislature. So, if the President asks you to
stop speaking, will you comply?
Yes,
he is my employer. If he tells me to stop talking, I’ll stop talking. But I
have certain rights too that I can exercise in addition to that, because I’m
not going to be in a position where I am impotent. So, I must obey him, but I
can go beyond that and obey myself too. That’s it. As for the leadership of the
APC, I think they are the most unprincipled group of people. They are
lily-livered, weak, and cannot run any organisation. The whole party is
collapsing under them. They cannot control anybody. Because they cannot control
anybody, they’re now in fact encouraging and accepting ‘rogues’. When I say
rogues, I don’t mean stealing. In literature, when you say someone is a rogue
elephant, it means people who are running riot and destroying the party.
They’re pampering them, saying: ‘Let’s not annoy them too much’, but they’re
destroying the APC house. So, I think the APC leadership is weak, is too
compromising and is certainly a failure as far as I’m concerned.
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